tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3179104266671755636.post6636972033055351140..comments2023-08-26T16:35:50.223+02:00Comments on Climbstat - Data Analytics and Visualization for Rock Climbing and Bouldering: How much harder is onsighting vs redpointing?Arne Jonas Warnkehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17568523828168805793noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3179104266671755636.post-44464158304633599522020-11-08T20:31:01.244+01:002020-11-08T20:31:01.244+01:00There are several elements that I think should be ...There are several elements that I think should be considered. One is that climbers who have a vested interest in their sport (ie, professionals or elite amateurs) understand what an onsight truly entails, that is, they stick to the rigors of the absolute boundaries of 'no beta' of any sort. Also, the fact that you found little statistical difference between onsights and flashes indicates from my experience, most climbers aren't onsighting but have had some knowledge, albiet unknowingly, because of their lack of stylistic rigor, and are, therefore, sight flashing. The fact that your X-Y graph shows a full number grade difference at the top end, also bears out my worry that those at lower grades don't understand the extent of the rigors for truly onsighting a climb. My personal experience, and those of my peers, has consistently shown a full number grade difference in performance, but for flashing more to 1 to 3 letter grade difference (yosemite scale). Since 8a.nu is user-based data, it's conceivable that as the grades go up, the understanding of the rigors of onsighting would increase too. <br /><br />The theory of grades, as I understand it, is based on a linear scale, whether or not climbers adhere to that. Since grades always feel the hardest at one's limit, its most likely there's more accuracy as one nears their capacity limit, but not at their capacity. When establishing FA's, in my experience, as the grades get further below my limit, I have more difficulty grading the line or problem. This is logical since my ability easily masks what then appears as nuances in difficulty difference (kind of like the effect of judging distance from the linear sight line of that distance instead of from the perpendicular axis... which is a form of removing emotional bias including adding weakness/strength awareness).<br /><br />At my limit, my input is subjective and oftentimes quite emotionally-based. To counteract this, my understanding was to use the term 'substantially harder' to limit over-grading. With strength/weakness awareness into one's understanding, subjectivity decreases to afford better consistent awareness over time.<br /><br />Thank you for your analysis.rob mullliganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06744210361156743420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3179104266671755636.post-2091721383446311322020-03-04T09:37:48.386+01:002020-03-04T09:37:48.386+01:00Grade differentials are odd, the difference betwee...Grade differentials are odd, the difference between max grade and the next grade can feel huge but differences in lower grades broadly linear.<br /><br />To allow for this in my analysis of my own climbing, I apply 2 measures, then derive a 3rd. Linear, exponential and the ratio of exp/lin. <br /><br />When I began analysis, I assigned 2 points to my modal grade (6a at the time) and progressed this both linearly and exponentially. The points start to diverge at 6b+ and I then use the ratio as a measure of how hard I have been trying. 7a gives a ratio of 2:1 for example. <br /><br />To fit in with the wanky nomenclature currently fashionable in climbing, I named the ratio "the crush index". Rad sending on your Kalymnos trip dude, you got a crush index of 1.7 overall, awesome, allez, allezz, venga, venga, raus, raus. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319181802918189910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3179104266671755636.post-9873178270153580632020-03-03T23:22:29.836+01:002020-03-03T23:22:29.836+01:00Thanks, I have to check that for me. I think it is...Thanks, I have to check that for me. I think it is at least partly psychological (as indicated in the comment above, better non-elite climbers want to climb 8a at least once and they are willing to put a lot of effort into it. As a consequence they rather try to go for an easy 8a than for normal 7c+). But perhaps they grades are in the end not as linear as I use to think (what Marcel points towards). What do you think? Do you think the difference between 7b and 7a+ is harder than between 7a+ and 7a (or whatever)?Arne Jonas Warnkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17568523828168805793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3179104266671755636.post-3731494032843557702020-03-03T23:16:14.760+01:002020-03-03T23:16:14.760+01:00Hi Marcel, thanks for your remarks. All very good ...Hi Marcel, thanks for your remarks. All very good points. Firstly, I did the analyses already a while ago but I think I have looked not only at the maximums but also top3 or top5 but I will check again and let you know! Secondly, regarding the variability, this is indeed a very interesting to investigate if there are certain types of climbers being very close to the redpoint limit in onsight while others are rather far away. Let me think about it. Thirdly, concerning the non-linearity of the grading scheme: Why do you think that the grading is non-linear? I think there are certain grades more ambitious climbers desperately want to redpoint such as 8a in Europe or 5.13a in the US, and they put a lot of tries into it. But apart from that I imagine grades becoming almost linearly more difficult and fewer and fewer climbers can reach them (see also http://climbstat.blogspot.com/2018/12/what-is-share-of-climbers-who-can-send.html). At least I cannot remember a grade where I would personally say that is really a big jump compared to the previous one. Would be interested to hear if you would disagree? Arne Jonas Warnkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17568523828168805793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3179104266671755636.post-6212146613335489772020-03-03T17:18:13.526+01:002020-03-03T17:18:13.526+01:00The violin graphs are a great visualisation of the...The violin graphs are a great visualisation of the data. It is interesting to see ripples caused by the + grades. I guess there are fewer + graded routes than full letter grades leading to this effect. My personal climbing data supports this too, maxima at full letter, minima at +Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16319181802918189910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3179104266671755636.post-33868990204028791402020-03-03T09:06:39.372+01:002020-03-03T09:06:39.372+01:00Nice analysis, thanks! It would be interesting to ...Nice analysis, thanks! It would be interesting to see the variability of the onsight grades in your lower plot. This especially because I perceive taking (linear) means over the (non-linear) climbing grades as somewhat more problematic. And maybe you could increase the stability of the results by not only using the single max redpoint and onsight grades, but instead taking the grade a climber achieved at least (e.g.) 3 times.Marcelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353824452017556112noreply@blogger.com